Carlo Giovanardi: "It was a bomb in Ustica and the culprits are alive."

A large majority are certain about the missile.

It's not a large majority! It's public opinion that saw the film and was influenced. Excuse me: to launch a fighter plane, you need an aircraft carrier, or a land base, and hundreds of people. So the plane takes off, returns two hours later without a missile, there are 81 dead, and no one says a word? Every time a civilian plane was shot down by mistake, they had to admit it, simply because hundreds of people knew about it. That's what happened with the Americans with the Iranian plane and the Soviets with the Korean Boeing. But do you know that Luttwak coined the term "usticare" to describe how things are done here? In all civilized countries, when there's a plane crash, it's the technicians who determine the causes. And then the magistrates go looking for the culprits, of course. But then why didn't all the Italian prime ministers, right and left, raise the issue when they went to France? I've read the personal letters in which Clinton and Chirac, on their honor as presidents, swear they had nothing to do with it. They responded to thirty-three letters rogatory, and here we continue to say they never responded to us!

What good would it do to claim it was a missile?

"To create the myth of the government covering it up. Four years ago, we, as an association, said: 'Gentlemen, forty years have passed and technology has made giant strides: let's do a super-examination of the wreck.' Do you know what they told us? Unfortunately, the examination can no longer be done because the wreck, which is forensic evidence, was reassembled incorrectly, has the wing backwards, and has also been cleaned to display in a museum! I'll tell you something else. Four or five years ago, when Conte was in office, they called me to Palazzo Chigi. They had me meet with the chief of staff and the head of intelligence, because Gasparri and I had seen the documents when we were on the Moro Commission. They were the documents from when the missiles were seized from Pifano and Abu Salek, who was the PLO's contact in Bologna and was arrested. And Arafat immediately wrote to the Italian government: "Are you kidding? Are you going to arrest our man in Bologna? But after the Fiumicino massacre in '73, we had an agreement: we can smuggle weapons through, and in exchange, we won't carry out attacks in Italy." At that point, the government tried to free Abu Salek, but unfortunately the judges in L'Aquila convicted him, and the extremist wing of the PLO decided to carry out reprisals. So much so that on the morning of June 27, Colonel Giovannone warned from Beirut: "Gentlemen, all the contacts have disappeared: we are on the verge of an attack." And that evening, the plane was cancelled. But the two men at Palazzo Chigi told me: "Giovanardi, keep quiet about this or we'll indict you; it's still a state secret." And every time he met me, Minniti would say: "Oh, silence." Then luckily I convinced Draghi and Meloni, they removed the state secret and all the documents are now in the state archives, available for consultation."

An objection that is all too easy.

«Say».

You are the same one who says that Cucchi died because he was malnourished and drugged.

"But this is incredible stuff they attributed to me. It's not like you're just extrapolating a word and making it into a statement: I never dreamed of saying anything like that. I defended the prison guards against the accusation of beating him. And in fact, they were acquitted, which is why they turned to the Carabinieri. But Cucchi was in a dramatic situation when he was arrested. Then, at the preliminary hearing, his father said he was fit but weighed 34 kilos; his life was hanging by a thread."

Broken by the carabinieri.

"Look, Tedesco, in front of a living police inspector and a living lawyer from Rome, came to me to say it was a scandal that they had indicted him and two others, that he was completely innocent: he was in front, the other two carabinieri were behind, at a certain point Cucchi had turned to slap one of the two carabinieri, lost his balance, fell, and hurt himself. Two months later, I read in the papers that Tedesco had become the star witness, and he said he hadn't done anything, but the other two had kicked Cucchi. Result: he's out, and the other two are serving twenty years in prison."

To understand: in your opinion, was that death an accident?

"I'm telling you the version Tedesco gave me in front of witnesses, saying that he turned to slap her, fell, and hurt himself in the process. It's clear that now the other two Carabinieri will ask for a review of the trial, and rightly so."

Did you become a contrarian by staying in the DC in the red Emilia?

"Ever since I was a city councilor, I've always fought my battles. Have you seen the latest one? I fought to put a plaque on the Military Academy: simply to remind you that it was the palace of the Dukes of Modena. They started a furious controversy: the Este family here, the Este family there... So let's erase two hundred years of history, let's create a Soviet encyclopedia. But I won, and the plaque is there."

Cazzullo writes about that plaque that she "as a wise political animal, senses a reactionary air in the country that is also expressed in nostalgia for pre-unification Italy."

"But I'm not nostalgic at all. I even told you: sorry, Cazzullo, are you nostalgic for the Savoy family because there are streets named after them in Turin? In Venice, are they nostalgic for the doges because they remember their names? In Caserta, they named the park of the royal palace after Charles of Bourbon: are they nostalgic too?"

She has a twin: has she ever pretended to be him to avoid a nuisance?

"It's the unwritten rule of monozygotes: if one is in an embarrassing situation, he claims to be the other."

Now it's easier to tell you apart: he's with Rizzo and Alemanno.

"Yes, because he became anti-vaxxer. At 72, you know? And to think he gave me a big hand in Brussels."

In Brussels?

"Yes, I went to ask for the PGI mark for our balsamic vinegar. In Naples they made "Modena balsamic vinegar" and wanted ours to be called "condimento," just imagine. But in Europe they didn't want to give us the PGI because Modena already had the PDO, and for a similar product, they said, you couldn't recognize two denominations. In reality, they're not similar at all: we're talking about everyday vinegar, which costs a few euros, and traditional balsamic vinegar, the one aged for fifty years that costs 80-90 euros a bottle. Anyway, I said to them, 'Gentlemen, you've given me some terrible news. Now in Modena I'm going to meet someone who was born on January 15, 1950, like me, at three in the afternoon like me, he's just like me, his name is Giovanardi like me, and I'll have to tell him that, unfortunately, according to Europe, he doesn't exist.' They laughed and let me off."